Education needed to teach reinforcment

[Bleedy Pokes]

I'm not trying to answer Joan's question for Vic or anything, but I think that a lot of students don't learn about reinforcement is because most teachers don't teach their students how to design a piece. It's usually "pick a pattern" and go from there. If there was a class regarding design, the need for reinforcement would surely come up and it would be addressed.

We had to draw our own designs in the class I took in high school. If a completed pattern had weak spots, we had to redraw it so that it was structurally stable, but we never learned about how to reinforce a piece that had potential hinges on concentric circles. That's what's so darn cool about these forums, it's like a classroom in your own home.

[JoanFrances]

Gwen I would agree if all the patterns that are in books were structually sound and did not contain hinges, but they do, and teachers that have been discussed on many forums, still do not address the problems.  There have been several incidents of patterns discussed on the forums that came from pattern books that contain hinges and the books never addressed the issue, nor did the students get warned about them

[Vic Rothman]

Well the idea was to get questions in order to facilitate an on line discussion.
But, since there is this discussion, I'll add my opinion.  I wish it was as simple that teachers and studios were trying to hide their secrets.
But I feel that there has been a general "dumbing" down of the stained glass craft over the years. And this is not unique to stained glass or the world for that matter.
I started  by buying a stained glass "how to" book nearly 40 years ago. At that time there were only a couple of books and no teachers that I knew of. If you wanted to learn stained glass you went to work at a professional studio. So I was a hobbyist, and like most of you I gave my relatives gifts till they would take no more. Then I sold by stuff. I made 3D things, planters, terrariums, lamps etc. I made those things because I had no confidence that a flat panel that I made would stay together. I turned down offers to teach, because I was mostly self taught and I don't want to teach people my  (probably )wrong techniques. After 12 years of selling work, managing a stained glass store. I finally took a studio job and learned how to make proper windows and do restoration.
So today's problem IMOP is when people get a bit on knowledge they start to teach. Then their students start to teach, and their students teach. SO they are not hiding info. They simply don't know the basic info and are afraid to admit it.  A wise person recently told me that a professional is someone who makes money from the (in this case) craft. It has NOTHING to do with knowledge or quality, for that matter.
Stained glass technique can be taught to anyone with eye and hand coordination. The real trick is to teach people how to look, reason, analyze and think about what they are making. These are the missing ingredients. This is why I, and others, are on all these forums. It's also why I helped (in a small way) organize the American Glass Guild. We need to get people to THINK.

[Kev]

Great answer Vic!

[JoanFrances]

Vic that was a great answere.

I taught ceramics years ago for about 7 years and you are right, students soon think that they can become teachers.  I had a hard and fast rule about the pieces that my students did, they could not take it out of my studio unless the pieces was done properly.  If they wanted to do it, they had to do it right, or they couldn't take it home, no exceptions. 

I would even go so far as pouring something that I knew would not hold up to see if the students would pick up on the weakness and why.

When it comes to glass, I remember doing some pieces that were in some books from a popular author that were so weak after that I was furious.  No one had told me anything about how to make them stronger.  I later read one book about ways of using wire and or restrip (not the braided stuff) on butterflies and such things like that.   

Don't you feel that if a teacher is asked a question that they don't know the answer to that they owe it to the student and the art to find the answere?  By the time one thinks that they can teach, I would think they should have at least a mast a network of informational sources, to properly answere questions. 

[Graham]

Right on the money, Vic.

Each generation of incompetence gets more incompetent. In time, all knowledge will be lost if we leave it in the hands of these folks. Fortunately there are a few excellent instructors out there.

The problem is, how does one new to the game, go about choosing the right one. There are no qualifications or standards. One can learn to make a simple suncatcher one week, and start "teaching" the next. One cannot teach what one doesn't know.

[Kev]

Right on Graham.

[ct4mom]

Great answer Vic. I never knew anything about reinforcement until I started coming to these forums. You take a class ans usually only make something small that maybe wont need to be reinforced but it should be mentioned for future projects. I for one did not pick the right teacher as they didnt even stay in the same room with the class and help out.

[JoanFrances]

Di, I think a lot of people run into the fact that they are left for fend for themselves after taking the biginner class that teachs how to score and break the glass, foil and then solder.  That kind of studio treats the following time to be studio time rather than class time, even though they call it classes.  From what many have said, "we didn't know what questions to ask, so how can you get the answeres". 

Thank God that we have people that will share the information with us here

[Amber]

So I had a great conversation with the owner of my local glass shop, not so much that we see eye to eye but it let me hear his side for techniques. Now he thinks that it's useless, for the most part, to expect a leaded panel to be stronger then a foil panel.... and that in fact a foil is stronger. This is not a silly guy, he's talking with a history of 30+ years of glass work and also 25+ years as a science teacher so he's not out to lunch *lol. As far as he's concerned he's built some sturdy, large pieces.... windows, doors, ect, and never has anything come back. He has worked with lead in the past but honestly felt that for time and effort he wasn't getting anything of a more durable finish.
So I'm honestly confused..... in no way do my 3 years know more then his 30+ years, so who am I to judge??? Why is it that he can build things that last so long and look so good when I'm warned of sagging and gravity and the toll they can take on glass. He says that lead will just melt in windows and that foil doesn't sag from gravity, and he's very passionate and has the work to prove his point. A lot of his pieces are from pattern books and are loaded with hinges, he'll hang a large panel using one chain insead of two, I mean so many things that I read here that are just plain wrong. What's up????

[Graham]

I think that brings us back to the age old question:
Does he have 30 years experience - or does he have one year experience 30 times??
It is not possible to teach people who won't learn.

[Vic Rothman]

"He says that lead will just melt in windows "

All I will say is lead melts at 621 degrees. If the lead in a window gets this hot, the buildings on fire

[Alan]

A lot of his pieces are from pattern books and are loaded with hinges, he'll hang a large panel using one chain insead of two, I mean so many things that I read here that are just plain wrong. What's up????

But he has been EXTREMELY lucky - he had better go buy a lottery ticket!

[Bleedy Pokes]

You know what, Amber? One of my local stained glass shops feels the same way about copper foil as your guy does. He and his wife have had their own shop in this little town for over 20 years. They do all their own designs (with pencil and paper!) though and do tons of lamp shades and kaleidoscopes. But he says he's done plenty of repairs on leaded pieces, and few repairs on foiled pieces, so he feels that the sturdiness of a copper foiled piece is superior.

If I head up the river a bit, and go to the big city shop (where they have a few books published and do lots of commission and repair work), he says he doesn't even teach copper foil unless it's a 3D class, he's strictly a lead guy.

When I asked both of them about classes, they both have you choose your own design, whether you draw it up yourself or choose someone else's pattern. Next time I'm out either of their ways, I'll ask them how they approach teaching reinforcement. I'm curious to know what they'll say, I haven't taken classes from either of them.

[JoanFrances]

This gentleman must have favor with the glass gods, cause I can't think of any other reason he has so far been succesful in this trade.  No disrespect meant Amber, BUT, for as little as I can brag that I know about stained glass, I wouldn't listen to this man for more than 5 minutes before I would be running out the door.  The reason that none of his work has come back to him is maybe the people didn't want to be subjected to the poor craftmenship a second time, or his (or his customers) have the luck of the Irish on their side.

His opinion about lead verses foil would have been enough for me the run out of his shop.  There are church windows that are in excess of 100 years old, here in my area, and they are all constructed using the lead and not foil method.  As you know church windows are huge.  

If heat were to melt the lead, what would be holding his foiled piece together when it is subjected to the heat, while hanging in a window?  Ask him if that were true then is he using lead free solder!

As for the bit about 2 chains verses 1, for the sheer protection of it all, I personally would rather feel safe that if one side of the chain failed at least my panel would still be hanging and not on the floor in need of repairs, or even worse, headed to the trash pan.  From what I have read the other reason for the 2 chains is so that over time you don't run into a bowing problem.  I took lessons from one person that has had a shop since 1979 and never has she hung anything using the 2 chain method, but after reading the post about the 2 chains, I would never go back to the one chain method, now would I advocate doing it to others.

Amber my advise would be,  if you read something here about constructing a stained glass piece from Graham or Vic I would take it to the bank, for sure.  And if someone tells you it doesn't make sense to them, just think it out and consider the alternatives, of what could happen if you don't heed the suggestions.

We all have our views of foil verses lead, but I would not discount either method as one being bad and the other being good.  As for repairs on lead verses foil, I think it was  Graham that said maybe the difference is that potential customers view leaded stained glass as more valueable and more worthy of being repaired. 

I believe that contruction is different than taste.  We all have our favorate glass to work with which I call taste, and the eye of the artist,  but constructing a stained glass panel that will withstand the test of time has to do with the craftmen and not taste

[Vic Rothman]

AS stated above. Lead came windows have been made for over 1000 years. The first copper foil window was made by Tiffany in 1901. And still over 90% of all Tiffany windows (1878-1932)were made with lead came. I'm  guessing that there were little to no foil windows made , except Tiffany, till around 1965 or so. So for anyone to say that they have repaired more lead windows than copper foil windows would be accurate, mainly because the percentage of lead windows to copper foil windows is enormous.
Getting back to melting lead at 621 degrees, 60/40 solder melts at 370 degrees. So if we continue with this ridiculous idea, than a foiled window would melt before a leaded window.
But I have not been a science teacher for 25 years. And I've only done stained glass for about 39 years. And I'm not really and expert, I only play one on the NET.

[JoanFrances]

Vic, I would hold your information up against anyone I have ever had the pleasure of debating when it comes to knowing what you are talking about, cause I haven't seen you give bad advise. 

Question though, if I could, I thought I had read it was Lafarge that had done the very first foil work while he was under Tiffany.  Was that information in correct.  Did they not work together and then have a falling out so to speak?

[Vic Rothman]

Vic, I would hold your information up against anyone I have ever had the pleasure of debating when it comes to knowing what you are talking about, cause I haven't seen you give bad advise. 

Question though, if I could, I thought I had read it was Lafarge that had done the very first foil work while he was under Tiffany.  Was that information in correct.  Did they not work together and then have a falling out so to speak?

LaFarge and Tiffany never worked together. And to my knowledge LaFarge never used copper foil. They both were trying to develop opalescent glass at the same time using the same glass manufacturers in Brooklyn NY. LaFarge got the glass patent in 1880.  Tiffany got a patent for plating stained glass. So technically nether could make their style of windows without the others permission. Tiffany's father brokered a a partnership deal between LaFarge and Tiffany. The deal fell through and LaFarge got screwed out of his patent rights. They sued each other a number of times.The first copper foil for stained glass patent was issued to a guy named Bray in 1886. Tiffany later bought Bray's company

http://www.google.com/patents?id=jUVbAAAAEBAJ&dq=copper+foil&num=100&as_drrb_ap=b&as_minm_ap=1&as_miny_ap=1840&as_maxm_ap=1&as_maxy_ap=1901&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=1&as_miny_is=1840&as_maxm_is=1&as_maxy_is=1901

http://www.google.com/patents?id=pv8_AAAAEBAJ&dq=tiffany+glass&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=0&as_miny_ap=&as_maxm_ap=0&as_maxy_ap=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1878&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1890
http://www.google.com/patents?id=SN5iAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=john+la+farge+glass&num=100&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0_0#PPP1,M1

[Amber]

Thanks everyone for the great responses! I have to say I feel reassured and it's a shame that I definitely don't have an avenue for learning leaded glass through him. He was very passionate in his discussion against any weakness in his way with foil glass work! It's also a shame that 6 other people were there and will now believe what he says, we had just finished a glass fusion class when I mentioned the subject of leaded class, not the first time *lol, and he was curious why I was so eager for it and went on with basically a bunch of malarky against the idea. So now he's convinced 6 others that foil glass work is strong and any adaptation through design altering or restrip is silly and usless and has no added benifit. Also that anyone interested inlead is wasting money, since the extra materials cost more, and wasting time to create something that is weaker.

[Becki]

Thanks everyone for the great responses! I have to say I feel reassured and it's a shame that I definitely don't have an avenue for learning leaded glass through him. He was very passionate in his discussion against any weakness in his way with foil glass work! It's also a shame that 6 other people were there and will now believe what he says, we had just finished a glass fusion class when I mentioned the subject of leaded class, not the first time *lol, and he was curious why I was so eager for it and went on with basically a bunch of malarky against the idea. So now he's convinced 6 others that foil glass work is strong and any adaptation through design altering or restrip is silly and usless and has no added benifit. Also that anyone interested inlead is wasting money, since the extra materials cost more, and wasting time to create something that is weaker.

Was the same man also teaching the fusing class?