DAP 33 for puttying lead came project

[Sue in NC]

Yet another question from me!  Sorry for being a pest.

My instructor in the lead came class told us we will be using Dap 33 to finish our project on Saturday.  He said using Dap 33 allows us to avoid using whiting and making a powdery mess, so it sounded really appealing.

While looking for info, I found a file on the Dap website that says that Dap 33 should never be used for stained glass.
http://www.dap.com/docs/tech/00010401.pdf says,
"DAP® 33 ®Glazing is not recommended for stained/leaded glass projects." 

I called the 888 number listed in the PDF and the Dap employee that talked to me told me Dap 33 will eventually cause stained glass to cloud and that it interacts with lead and should never be used with it. It will not adhere well and will fail.

I asked what Dap product I could use instead of Dap 33 and she said that they have no appropriate product. She said that a company named Somer & Maca is the one Dap recommends stained glass artists contact and gave me an 800 number for them. I haven't called them yet. I thought I would ask for product suggestions here first. 

Now I have to figure out how to talk to my instructor. I don't want to sound critical; that is not how I feel at all. At the same time, I want to let him know what Dap told me, and I would prefer not to use Dap 33 on my project.

Sue

[Kev]

I know there are many that hate this product, but intially starting out doing lead, it's a good way to learn how to apply the putty, use the whiting, and so forth.

Pick up a small can of inland cement from your stained glass store or order it. Let your instructor know you want to learn the traditional way of leading up a piece. It's quite easy to do. you might do it at home before class and take the finished piece in with you. What can he say..you've already completed it the traditional way, and your better off in the long run having the experience. Once you have done a few pieces, look for the recipes online or ask Vic, Rebecca, Graham or Judy or just post the question here and someone will help you with the information for making your own putty. I would probably mention to the instructor what Dap told you, as everyone else in that class is going to get wrong information and think that that is an appropriate product to use.

[Graham]

I have seen this question umpteen times over the years. I don't know why some people insist on disbelieving the manufacturers of the product when they say their product is unsuitable for stained glass. Do they not understand the rule of "R.T.F.I." i.e. "Read The F***ing Instructions"

Kev's suggestion makes sense. Use a small package of a commercial product that's intended for stained glass use to learn the basics of cementing. In the longer run, making your own putty with whiting and linseed oil is inexpensive and easy.

I suppose telling your instructor that he is an idiot wouldn't be polite. Kev's way of getting around it sounds workable - but somehow you should bring the matter to the attention of the instructor, as well as your fellow students.

[Sue in NC]

Today I will finish the soldering. Tomorrow I will try to find some cement made for stained glass and use it.  Thank you for the suggestions.

I have until Saturday to come up with a gentle way to bring the unsuitability of the product to my instructor's attention.  I thought about doing that off to the side, but I agree that the other students need to at least know there is a problem.

This shop does a lot of large commercial work, too.

Sue

[Kev]

I'm a little perplexed as to why an instructor would lead you in that direction. If he is going to teach lead construction and your paying for the class, then he should be teaching you how to putty correctly with the right products...isn't that what you signed up for...instruction on lead construction?  Maybe he's protecting his own line of business from potential competition down the road. Either way it's just not right!

[JudyK]

Oooh, you are in a tough spot. Most likely the studio uses their own putty made from whiting and linseed oil for their real work. There is a good chance they guess most first timers will never touch glass again and do not want to clean up the whiting mess that some students can make. Only guessing here, but it would not surprise me. I disagree with ever teaching a bad habit, ever, but some people will start you off with easy and if you continue, retrain you later.

I would go slow in correcting your teacher publicly. You will likely need to buy products and gain other information from them in the future. A good working relationship is worth protecting. I like your idea of experimenting with the putty on your own, but I think you could also go and use what he wants for now and learn the basic techniques of applying the putty with what ever he is using.

Your window coming up with an air hole already had me questioning your teachers commitment to teaching excellence.

Don't hold this training window as something you want to last forever. It is just to show you how. Your work will improve quickly, so don't hold this one too near and dear to your heart.

As far as the other students, if you make friends with them, you can tell them off to the side what you have learned by giving them a copy of dap's reply and a copy of a better way. Like I said , many of them are just there to have fun once, and will not be investing in the craft.

With this, The instructor is a Nerd! But can still be a useful relationship in the future. Take what he teaches and improve on it. I had to do that too. When I passed her capabilities our friendship was strained , but now she calls on me. I am glad I did not sever the relationship. It just changed over time. You are on the right track seeking to improve already.  I am so glad you have come here, wise move  

The putty is easy to make. Their are different balances of oil for different purposes. The easiest way to start out is to put a cup of whiting in an old yogurt container. Now mix a couple if tea spoons of raw linseed oil and boiled linseed oil in another disposable container. Mix it 50/50 for now. Later you may want it to dry slower or faster and want to adjust that. But that is later. Slowly pour a little of this mix into your whiting and mix until it is like dough. It is a bit messy but not bad. Pretend you are 5 yrs old and then that dough looks pretty fun. You can put the lid on the yogurt tub and keep it for a few days.

I had a rough time finding Raw Linseed oil. I finally found it at a pet supply store with the horse stuff.

[Rebecca]

I don't like the Inland putty because it dries as hard as a rock.  But I agree with Judy that you can do what the teacher wants for this class and learn the basics.  Then try new things on your own.  I like my putty to be like Play-Doh and I push it under the leads using my thumb and fingers.  Then I run a sharpened dowel around the edges and sprinkle just a small amount of whiting on it and brush.  The whiting and brushing cleans the glass and the lead will darken.  Let us know how your class goes and post a picture of the finished panel.

Rebecca

[Sue in NC]

As far as I know Dap 33 is what the shop itself uses, but I could be wrong. They have big containers of the gray Dap 33 stacked up. I think he said they thin it with linseed oil.

I specifically went to this place for the lead came class, because they do so much lead came work. They do have some artistic copper foil items for sale along with the appropriate supplies, but their own work is almost entirely lead came. 

Best laid plans...etc.

At least I have no plans to do anything with the piece I am currently making. I don't even intend to give it to family. It is strictly for the learning.

Sue

[Kev]

Judy made some good points....you might want to preserve the relationship between  you and the owner of the store. At least you know the difference and can do it the right way on you own.

[JudyK]

Sorry to hear the owner knows better and still uses it for real work. Bummer!

Using the right stuff is not hard and not that messy.

I am proud of you for seeking to learn lead came. Many people stop at only learning foil. I find they are both good to know and have different applications.

[TodB]

I have to say that using the DAP for the practice piece is probably OK, but I suggest asking the teacher about the info you found, quite legitimately doing research about your new hobby, regarding the manufacturer's warning about DAP & stained glass.

BTW: One can use whiting to clean up the DAP (it works fine in fact!) and one need not make a great mess doing so.

Good luck, Sue in NC. - Tod

[Ozzieglassie]

I agree with Judy. Just go along with what the teacher is doing. I also agree that you having the gap in the window would immediately make me question te teachers credentials. Not sure what it is like there, but here anyone can set themselves up to teach SG and you have no idea of how well they know there stuff!
I also agree with her putty recipe. I add black oxide and find that the glass colours "lift" .... appear much brighter when you use black putty ...all to do with reflection/refraction of light. I buy wood frame putty from a hardware store and add black oxide and a bit of linseed oil just to get it to the right consistency.
I also agree with Rebecca...Inland sets way too hard, and if you ever have to do a repair/restoration on a window puttied/cemented with it you will never use it again.lol. And instead of the sharpened dowel, I use a horseshoe nail to trim the putty away ....I'm a great believer in making life simple and whatever's to hand is what I use :)
But, as Judy says, you are already "thinking outside the box" and asking all the right questions. You have a great future ahead of you in glass ... and I hope you enjoy the journey.

[Sue in NC]

I ended up using the Dap to finish my piece. Gosh, that stuff is sticky! The Dap darkened the lead came and the solder. That helped camoflage some of my mistakes.  Tomorrow I will again scrub the glass and came with a brush (a clean one this time), being careful to avoid the area with the little gap, to remove any remaining excess Dap.

My next piece I will do on my own and do it differently.

I really am trying hard. The results aren't so great yet, but they will get better.

Thank you all for your help. I appreciate you very, very much.

Sue

[JudyK]

I don't know DAP, but with putty from whiting it also turns the lead dark. I always use the same dirty brush. The new brush takes a while to turn the lead dark.

After putting putty under the lead with my fingers, I push it under with a cut popcycle stick, sprinkle it with whiting and brush real good. Take a wooden stick to the edges to get the extra gone. And then scrub with whiting and brush again. Then let it set to dry.

If there is still dap on the glass I would sprinkly whiting on it as soon as possible and brush. The longer you wait the harder it is to get the dap off easily.

I am glad you did this project. The next one will be that much easier.

[Rebecca]

Yep, if there is DAP on the glass, you can also sprinkle whiting on and use a paper towel on the glass.  At least, that's what I do with real putty if there is anything on the glass.  It even takes old paint off of the glass when I do repairs.  The whiting is abrasive enough to take off a lot of things, but not abrasive enough to scratch glass.

Rebecca

[Rebecca]

I use a wooden dowel instead of a horseshoe nail because the metal can scratch some glass.  It might only scratch a small number of soft glasses, but I don't want to find out after it is done.  Some bevels scratch easily and it really shows when one is scratched.

Rebecca

[Kev]

Manicure orange sticks work great for removing excess putty along the lead came.

[Graham]

Yup! Bevels are pretty soft glass, and can get scratched easily. I used tongue depressors cut off square.

[glassman52]

I believe DAP 33 is a latex base and I don't know why it would affect the glass but I would heed their warning. In the auto industry we use latex, urethane and silicone based products and some contain an "etching compound" (acid) for adhesion and that may be the reason they do not recommend it for art glass.
Urethane is a supper strong sealant and adhesive but impossible to clean up on something such as stained glass although there is speculation of water Bourn urethane.(cleans up with water before cured)

[TodB]

glassman52:
It looks like it's oil-based rather than latex. Here's a link to the MSDS: http://www.dap.com/docs/msds/00010401001_english.pdf

In fact, it looks like it's soya oil & powder(s), similar to "traditional" putty/cement that many of us make, but with a pretty complicated "powder" combination instead of simple whiting.

"Back in the day", sellers of DAP & Sterling glazing compounds led us (sg-ers) to believe that we shouldn't use either product to install a leaded window in any opening. They generally made no comment (or distinction) about cementing your leaded panel.

Back then, I used Sterling steel sash glazing compound (black). It was all the rage for sg folks in this area back then ('70's). It seemed to work fine, but I was not able to test it for 50-100 years while I determined if it was suitable for leaded work. The main noticable difference between steel sash g.c. & regular g.c was the consistency; glazing compound meant for wood sash was oilier. It makes sense that you'd use a drier putty with non-absorbent materials.

Ultimately, it seemed smart to just make my own. It's real cheap, you make what you need, to whatever consistency you want and never need to waste it. You can even adjust the black/gray tint and, in fact, you can color it with universal pigment or any oil-based paint to any color you want, including fuschia!
- Tod

[glassman52]

TodB,
       I have done very little lead work myself (mostly foil) and it was early on when I first started into sg. I have been dormant for 20 some yrs. until now, however I managed to hold on to a leaded window pane from our old house we had in the city that had been broken by clumsy workers and now (if I can still remember how) will attempt to restore it. If I recall in my class some 35 yrs. ago we used an oil based compound that the instructor had made, but not working with it for so long, I had forgotten most until reading this thread.

        If urethanes were to be developed to withstand sun light and clean up with water then that would be the way to go. Strong and permanent.