painting with enamels

[Anne]

Can anyone who's done any enamel painting give me some tips please?  I'm trying to paint with enamels - I'm using Klyr-fire as the medium.  My first attempt I fired to 1050 - the enamel came out powder.  So, I washed it off, painted it again, and refired to 1150.  Still powder. Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong.  The powder when it's mixed with the Klyr fire is still a bit gritty, is that the right way to use it? If it's not fairly runny then it's like a paste, can't 'paint' with that.

[Vic Rothman]

I'm guessing here, BUT. Klyr fire is used as a high fire type adhesive. It is used to hold glass pieces for fusing. Or for holding high fire enamels used in fusing and cloisonne. So I am thinking that is does not work for low fire paints. Try mixing the paint with water and gum arabic or just with clove oil

[Anne]

thank you Vic, I will try that.  I'll let you know how it worked.

[Becki]

You can use alot of different mediums, Anne.  7-Up seems to be a popular one too.  It sounds to me as if the temp is still not high enough to melt the enamels in the glass.  You may have to play with your temps to see what works for you.

[Kev]

I've used enamels a few times and did as Vic stated with good results...water and gum arabic. 1050 is the recommended temp for the enamels I have which are Thompson enamels. They fire pretty light, so if your looking for intense color, you will have to do a few coats to achieve it.

[Vic Rothman]

You can use alot of different mediums, Anne.  7-Up seems to be a popular one too.  It sounds to me as if the temp is still not high enough to melt the enamels in the glass.  You may have to play with your temps to see what works for you.

If you use 7Up, it needs to be flat, and the sugar in it replaces the need for gum arabic

[Anne]

Kev, my first fire was at 1050 and I still had powder.  But as Vic said klyr fire is a hi fire medium so that's probably what was wrong with the first fire. Grrr, frustrating!

[Becki]

I would think that Klyr-Fire would, as most other binders, burn out before you reach process temp so it wouldn't be the problem.  No?

[Vic Rothman]

Well, I said I was guessing. I never heard of Klyr-fire used as a low fire paint medium. I have no idea at what temperature it burns off.
Also we were not told what type of enamels paints are being used. They come in various firing temperatures. That might be the problem. If the paints are designed to be fired at 1450 and you fire they at 1050, then nothing happens

[Anne]

Well, I said I was guessing. I never heard of Klyr-fire used as a low fire paint medium. I have no idea at what temperature it burns off.
Also we were not told what type of enamels paints are being used. They come in various firing temperatures. That might be the problem. If the paints are designed to be fired at 1450 and you fire they at 1050, then nothing happens

They're Thompson enamels Vic. When I bought them I was told the medium to use was Klyr Fire so I didn't know any different.  I am going to try the water and gum arabic - after I finish the dozen fusing projects I want to do next. No harm in trying it and I will post the results.

[Becki]

The lowest firing temp I can find for Thompsons enamels is 1350, Anne.  http://www.thompsonenamel.com/products/enamels/index.htm
You might want to contact them to get the scoop!

[Anne]

The lowest firing temp I can find for Thompsons enamels is 1350, Anne.  http://www.thompsonenamel.com/products/enamels/index.htm
You might want to contact them to get the scoop!

Thanks Becki. I happen to be going to the suppliers next week so I'll fill them in too.

[Vic Rothman]

Thompsons make Klyr-fire and they sell enamels for various metals and for fusing. So no I'm guessing that you are using the wrong stuff. If you fire those enamels at the right temperature, you may end up melting and distorting your glass.

Sounds like your supplier knows more about fusing than stained glass painting. OR you did not explain exactly what you wanted to do

[Anne]

ok, now I'm getting confused.  Did you look at the link Becki gave me Vic? I bought the 80 mesh that they say o their web site should be fired to 1400+ for stained glass (for Sys 96).

So I guess what I should do now is paint a scrap piece of glass and give it a try next time I have a fuse going to that temp.  Oh man, so much to learn, so many things to do, so little time!

[Vic Rothman]

Again. I'm guessing that if they are telling you what stained glass has the same COE as their paint. Then the paint is more intended to be fused than the "normal" glass paint used in stained glass windows. COE was never a factor in traditional stained glass painting.  When you fire 1/8" glass at over 1350 the glass starts to distort. Making leading that glass difficult.  So I must conclude that the paint and the technique you are using is for painting fused stained glass and NOT traditional stained glass painting.
Read the Bullseye info in the link below
http://www.bullseyeglass.com/pdf/technotes_tipsheets/TechNotes_04.pdf

[Kev]

Come to think of it, the binder I used was called "Water Friendly Medium", and I fired at 1050.

[Kev]

I looked at that link Becki..looks like those enamels are for fusing, and sound more like frit then enamels. They do mention "enamels for painting" near the end of the opening statements. So they list them in  a different place in their catalog.

Check out this link  http://www.dickblick.com/products/thompson-lead-free-enamels/

The enamels you have Anne is actually a powered glass frit that fires as 1450-1550 for 2-3 minutes. So..that would be the problem. Since it is a frit you are using, the Kylfire should work as a medium for application.

[Becki]

I don't think the issue here is the binder but the different firing temps for the particular powder glass enamels you're using.  And yes, they are finely ground glass, Kev, but not necessarily considered frit. Lots of different binders are used for different enamels...it's pretty much a personal preference.  The binders are going to burn out before the glass reaches process temp.

A really good book on the subject is "Contemporary Glass Enameling" by Kay Bain Weiner.

[nansea121]

Great thread!!! I haven't tried any of this. Looking forward to see if this info helped you Anne:) I never thought about the paint actually being a fine frit.

[Kev]

The issue in Anne's case is the firing temp, but the distinction also needs to be made between the enamel she is using compared to enamels used for painting..painting enamels fire at 1050..her's fire at 1450-1550. What she used is for fusing, not what is used in the traditional sense of painting on glass.